Theme: Symposium on Contemporary Ceramics by Kaufman

Theme: Symposium on Contemporary Ceramics by Kaufman
Date: November 6, 2019
Venue: Beijing Guozhong Ceramic Art Gallery




    Fang Lili Good afternoon friends!  All of you are our friends in the industry. We are very glad to be entrusted by the sponsor and the organizer to serve as the host of this seminar. Since I was the host of this planner they thought I might be more familiar with the situation as the host.
    You've just seen the Jacques Kaufman exhibition which I think was very instructive for us. Not just in China but the whole world is faced with a problem the contradiction and integration between tradition and modernity global and local how we go toward integration how we resolve the confrontation which were very important problems. We see a lot of beauty in Kaufman's works. We always think of contemporary art as originating from the West but when I read Kaufman's work I found that not only China is learning from the West but also the West is learning from the East. So east and west are learning each other together and we see that in Kaufman. In fact a lot of his works are western thinking on the one hand and eastern philosophy on the other hand. For example in the process of creation he emphasized "no ego" "deconstruction of self" and "searching for virtual environment" which is not what technology does but how technology and materials stimulate our subconscious mind. This has a lot in common with our philosophy of Zhuangzi Laozi and Zen. Also the philosophy of the Song Dynasty in fact it is to explain the nature of things and pay attention to the natural beauty of things.
    Through sorting out the materials it is found that the philosophy of Taoism and Zen Buddhism in China has a deep influence on the contemporary ceramic art of the United States or Japan. But this deep influence doesn't mean that we China are great. It's important that we rediscover it understand it rediscover and re-understand it and become a modern language.
   So I think the best thing about works of Kauffman is that it combines East and West and learns from each other.
   My thoughts have been stated in my article and will not be described here including the introduction I have written before.
In order not to waste time we would like to make a formal statement. Mr. Kaufman and several others have already spoken at the opening ceremony so they including Mr. Zhou Guangzhen will interact with you in the end.



   Next I would like to invite you to speak according to the name given by the sponsor and the organizer.
    Mr. Bai Ming applied for the first speaker. Therefore I would like to invite Mr. Bai Ming to speak. He is Ceramics Department director and professor of Academy of Fine Arts of Tsinghua University and the director of the Ceramic Art Committee of the China Artists Association. Let's welcome Mr. Bai Ming.
    Bai Ming Thank you very much for this opportunity to attend the opening ceremony of our old friend Kaufman today. I didn't expect to see so many friends when everyone is so busy. Also friends from all over the place who haven't seen each other in more than a decade.
    Kaufman's works are exhibited in our first exhibition in China so I am very familiar with his works.
    I was surprised to see his exhibition today especially his recent use of Chinese elements. I was very touched by the choice of such a symbolic thing for his creation in China's artistic path and the effect was very touching.
    Torbjorn KvasboIn initial remarks I quite agree with Torbjorn Kvasbo when he said that Kaufman should not be treated as a ceramist alone. If we look at his works only as a ceramist we may not be able to fully understand his artistic creation over the years. Because in my eyes Kaufman is more like a contemporary artist's way of creation just the main medium is ceramic material. So in his earliest materials including the works I introduced to him in the last century he chose ready-made installations including structures and even Spaces in the outdoors. At that time which should have been more than 20 years ago he was already thinking about the relationship between ceramic materials and space. This is very surprising to Chinese artists. Because at that time Chinese artists were still just beginning to transform and change in form. Therefore Chinese ceramists of that era if you look back 20 years ago although there are a lot of contemporary languages and new creations their works are not huge nor do they go to space. Therefore his thinking of going to space in that era actually has a great enlightenment and influence on the generation of Chinese ceramists of that age.
    ISE Decades later his travels to China and especially his tenure as president of ISE in recent years changed his thinking and his approach to creating. Just like the theme of this exhibition "Eastern and Western Philosophy" many people in the past said what kind of philosophical thinking should be taken into consideration. Personally I think that not every work of Kaufman's is entirely philosophical. While he developed his philosophical view his sensitivity to vision materials and a very deep understanding of morphological symbols resulted in his works naturally blending into the two different Spaces of Eastern and Western philosophy which is a way of presenting on ceramic materials.
    For example he found gold bricks a material that is unique to China. If it turned out to be a real thing from a fundamental point of view then That thing became the vehicle for its minimalist symbols even in a Zen-like way. He took such a simple brick which was fired in a slow time for more than 100 days. Under his hands it has become a work bearing the symbolic meaning of his thinking on Eastern and Western cultures. And the way he presents it it gives us an understanding of the brick and the long process of firing and the intangible heritage which gives us new perspective. It is no longer a way of making a difficult and superb brick over a long period of time but he has gradually accumulated his sensitive knowledge of the material from this way.

He used many symbols on the bricks including the symbols of paper cutting. I first saw his some brick works in that language last year in an exhibition at the museum of Tsinghua University's Academy of Fine Arts. This time I saw a couple of new pieces that were more minimalist more Zen and had a very high control over the texture of the ceramics. And of course he also brought with him works that he made in his studio but also works that he made in France that were similar to the pure white porcelain that he made in China. This huge annotated work full of power with a sense of etiquette is in my opinion a very important landmark work in his life. It is said that this work is in the national collection I think it is very remarkable.
    He also brought his small works. When these works are juxtaposed together you will find that whether you look at his work with Eastern or Western philosophical thinking or you look at it with no such thinking at all and purely visually the overall effect of the juxtaposition of the work itself is a fusion of things. This is a fusion of the artist's understanding of this unique material of the material formed by the earth which is different from that of the human temperament. Here we can see pure porcelain coarse-grained pottery and especially the little works of blasting which he made. If such a work is not to see the original but just to see a big picture I think it is a huge work. This is in line with another Chinese aesthetic - see the big with the small. Small works can be seen with great verve which is a very difficult realm is a very difficult realm.

In addition he has several other works including the thin and fragile works of white porcelain under the light. The  exhibition hall is not large but you will find that Kaufman covers almost all of his useful explorations of various clay materials techniques and fires. Especially in his twenty years in China whether he was subjective active or passive or his perceptual cognition his experience or his inspiration he skillfully integrated the Eastern and Western cultural philosophy in the overall control of materials and also understood the height of the cognitive concept of mud and fire. Fire confirms earth in much the same way that volcanic eruptions form mountains except that it took thousands of years for the earth to record them but fire quickly shows us a piece of soft earth moving forward in time in a short time. This becomes a hard fragile and timeless thing that inspires the contemporary artist's obsessive desire to explore.
    This is different from the fact that we in China used to be completely focused on the use of containers and it's the limit of the formation of two points which look like two different directions. All we see is the back but when the two figures walk farther and farther we stand on the other side of the circle and you find that they are coming together. Whether we look at the space and philosophy of the container or we look at the new understanding of the form we will embrace each other at the end of that circle.
    So this is a little bit of my perception of Kaufman's strong and thin creativity after seeing this exhibition and also some of my sensory judgments about this exhibition.
    Many congratulations to Kaufman and thanks to GIC for making such a useful and very worthy exhibition. I also take this opportunity to meet a lot of new friends old friends. Thank you!
Fang Lili Thank you Professor Bai Ming. He talked about Mr. Kaufman's works. In this we can see that both the philosophy and technology of the East and the West are a natural fusion.

    Next I'd like to invite Mr. Liu Jude to speak. He is my teacher a teacher whom I respect very much. He was the former director of the Academy of Fine Arts and one of the few senior professors at Tsinghua University. And I think I was very impressed when I was in class he was very deep in Eastern philosophy. And his painting is also very good Mr. Liu Jude was graduated from the Department of Ceramics. Mr. Liu has not been working in the field of ceramics for many years. Now he will come to the field of ceramics and shared with us his opinions. Thank you.
    Liu Jude Thank you.

    I am very lucky to see Mr. Kaufman's ceramic works today. When Fang Lili told me about your exhibition I said I would definitely go there. I am professional in ceramic art but I am very interested in it especially Mr. Kaufman's works so I said I would definitely go and have a look.
    Today is the first time I have seen your works and I have never seen them before. After seeing them my first feeling is that there is no boundary between eastern and western art and we do not need to divide east and west. The real art must belong to all mankind must be contemporary must also be the most primitive and original.
    His art let me see a sense of " The duty of God is replaced by man " as if God made the natural art works rather than by human. This is the highest level of art. Art is acting on behalf of God. " The duty of God is replaced by man" is an ancient Chinese saying.
    Looking at his works I feel like the natural and ancient fossils or the wonderful forms formed by the collapse of the earth's magma that we have never seen before. In these forms the power of nature the energy of nature and the energy of humanity are all condensed. This is not an exaggeration it is really so.
    He broke a lot of the boundaries that we had about art especially ceramic art. Of course any art is free in reality and Mr. Kaufman is free in his hands with materials temperature and all that. What is the cause of freedom The reason for freedom is that there is no presupposition. When we draw we should not have any presupposition. We should not make a small draft to enlarge it. We must rely on your intuition and after you make the first brush stroke all the brushes will come out in thousands and thousands. He is a kind of generation growth; he is a kind of discovery; he found the secret of the material; he found the energy; he embraced it. I think this kind of creation is not only the highest state of Eastern art but also the highest state of Western art. So I say there is no boundary between Eastern and Western art at this point. There may be linguistic boundaries but his knowledge must converge at a higher level.
    Today when I see Mr. Kaufman's works I deeply feel that art really returns to the original most natural and unsophisticated state of heaven and earth which will be the origin of life that we artists all look forward to. And the most true thing in art is that artists use their own intuition their own soul and all their own vitality and blood to feel all these things and Mr. Kaufman's induction can be said to give us a demonstration.
    Thank you all.
    Fang Lili Mr. Liu speaks very well and also speaks about the essence of Mr. Kaufman's works. I think Mr. Kaufman must agree with Mr. Liu. I particularly study Mr. Liu Jude's paintings. I think he said it best. Eastern and Western cultures are interlinked and can meet on the highest mountain top.
    Next I'd like to invite Ms. Fu Weijie who is the "head" of the China Ceramic Association and now the director of the Art Committee of the China Ceramic Industry Association.
    Fu Weijie I think after seeing this exhibition what do I think I was touched by From my point of view I feel like I've missed a lot of my responsibilities because I think there are a lot of things that we ceramic artists usually can't access. For example the tools he used or the materials he used I should bring these things to our ceramists I should bring our artists to the tile industry so that they can have access to the latest technologies the latest tools such as things that are used in tiles and foamed ceramics. If I bring these to our artists they may also create a lot of modern or Chinese national culture combined with these things. I feel it is my duty.

    Let’s listen to other person’s opinions.
    Fang Lili Thank you Ms. Fu Weijie. She has done a lot of work because China is a big ceramic country there are not only contemporary ceramic artists but also various production areas as well as the ceramic industry. This is a huge ceramic country so just now Mr. Zheng Zhi described to us a big prospect of China's huge ceramic art and ceramic industry. I think the China Ceramic Industry Association has done a lot of work. Thank you.
    Next we would like to invite Professor Zhu Legeng the dean of the Chinese Academy of Arts and the Academy of Art Creation to speak.
    Zhu Legeng Thank you Mr. Kaufman for bringing us such a wonderful ceramic exhibition. Just now our vice president also said something about it. I know the vice president very well and I know Mr. Kaufman very well too.  He invited me to a meeting held by the 3rd China Ceramic Association Exhibition. Now there is a different kind of ceramic art in China that is pottery art because how to evaluate it Now pottery art came out this pottery art has no function how to evaluate it At that time I went to Japan for the 3rd Meinong International Ceramic Exhibition translate and send some comments to accompanying delegation members. It is the first time I go to Japan to see ceramic exhibition and I was quite shocked. It divides ceramic art into two major categories one is design and the other is ceramic art.
    After China's reform and opening up the exchange of ceramic art gradually increased ceramic art appeared a completely different thing with the past. What are the criteria for evaluation I communicated the requirements of the judges to the people who were like the judges and I did PowerPoint. Modern pottery was introduced to China in a very short time but I still think it is a great progress. The traditional Chinese ceramic art  has its own development and decline but now ceramic art brings impact thinking. Now it completely overturns our previous concept of a ceramic design especially Mr. Kaufman put ceramic art in the creation completely as a form of modern art creation. In particular he talks with people in the process of his creation as a ceramic looking for the best moments in the dialogue which he feels can express his thoughts and stays the eternal things through the firing of ceramics.
    So Mr. Kaufman's exhibition is not only this exhibition Mr. Kaufman has been to China many times he has held exhibitions in Shanghai on the highest buildings in Shanghai and in many universities. Mr. Kaufman has given us a lot of new enlightenment on the development of Chinese ceramic art.
    In addition from the perspective of the development of ceramic art in China at present I think we are doing very well now. There are a lot of ceramic activities in various colleges and universities including various ceramic producing areas. In this process I think Chinese ceramic art should have a good development on the basis of traditional ceramics and it should find a new way of its own completely different from the original industry of such a ceramic field. In the past we were all industrial including the requirements of the ceramic industry but now it is a pure artistic expression. Through the creation of ceramic art I think it is a great progress.
    And the creation of this modern pottery brings something new. Mr. Kaufman's works appear no function no utilitarian goal however it brought a spirit of modern art for our Chinese ceramic industry and other industries. The thought of modern art in the industry should be the soul of things is a very important thing. It is a very important inspiration to us. Especially after Mr. Kaufman came to China he went to Jingdezhen paid close attention to the traditional Chinese culture integrated into the traditional Chinese culture with his new perspective to interpret the expression of his new ideas which gave us a brand new visual feeling.
    That’s all. Thank you very much.

    Fang Lili Thank you Professor Zhu Legeng. What he said is also very important. In the past ceramics were commodities for daily use in China then later enters the modernization of the main ceramic design so in schools colleges and universities ceramic design courses were set up. Contemporary pottery has given a great impact and it has combined pottery and contemporary art together but does it have meaning and value In fact it is valuable because without Western contemporary art there would be no Western contemporary design. And if without Chinese contemporary ceramic art there would be no Chinese contemporary ceramic design. I think eastern and western supplement  each other.
    Now let's welcome Professor Zhang Fuye to speak. Professor Zhang Fuye is a professor of the Academy of Fine Arts of Tsinghua University and the director of the Institute of World Art History.
    Zhang Fuye There are a lot of teachers from Tsinghua University such as Mr. Zheng Ning who is here just now and Mr. Fumio Shimada from Tokyo University of the Arts. I didn't expect that they all left.
    Well I didn't know Mr. Kaufman in the past but about half a month ago we met in Shanghai and Yixing Jiangsu. We were both judges of the Chai-burning Art Exhibition so we got in touch with him and learned about his art. First of all he is an artist with great personality because when he was a judge I was particularly impressed by his principled attitude. At that time I felt that as an international judge his serious attitude and wisdom left me a deep impression.
    I had seen some of his works and I knew then that his works were opening here this afternoon. And having received an invitation we gladly accepted and come this afternoon. It's very exciting to see these works and it's also very exhilarating. I found that now the ceramic art creation in our country is in a stage in the ascendant. I have seen many exhibitions and works but I always feel that there are very few works with such innovative or profound connotations. To put it impartially there are also many "garbage" in ceramic art in some places which is still a thing that makes people sad.
    But when I see these works of Mr. Kaufman here today they are really refreshing. I think as a ceramist he has a good grasp of the material and the application of the material so I feel that his works are not only exudes clay but also exudes strong poetry. The two characteristics of mud and poetry are fully reflected in his works which impressed me deeply.
    I feel that his works are indeed permeated with a lot of his philosophical thinking so the style presented in his works is different from that of others. That is the style presented is very high and his connotation is very profound.
    So I think Mr. Kaufman has well grasped the poetic and clay nature of contemporary pottery and the special vocabulary of this kind of pottery. Also it has presented us a spiritual feast which is really a kind of enjoyment after we see it. His works left a very deep impression on me.
    China is a big country of ceramics among all the arts I think ceramic art can be said to be one of the oldest art forms of our human beings. And conversely it is also the most modern and contemporary art form. A lot of art actually stopped in the middle such as our country's traditional bronze art our lacquering and other arts. But we found that ceramic art has not been interrupted since its birth and I am convinced that it will accompany our human beings to continue to exist and develop.
    Therefore with such a good medium and the feelings of our contemporary artists in it all like Mr. Kaufman's artistic creation I think we can not only see the brilliant future of our ceramic art but also see a hope for the development of ceramic art.
    So I think this exhibition is not only Mr. Kaufman's personal exhibition. This exhibition should have a kind of inspiration to all of us ceramic artists. We should learn something from it to realize something which I think is the value of this exhibition.
    I hope that Mr. Kaufman will often hold such exhibitions in China in the future and we also wish Mr. Kaufman's artistic youth to last forever.
    Here again thanks and congratulations to Mr. Kaufman.
    Fang Lili Mr. Zhang Fuye is the director of the Institute of World Art. He studied in Japan. I don't know that he knows French. He said that this exhibition is not only about Mr. Kaufman's works but also about what we can think and learn from it which is very interesting and very good.
    Let’s welcome Li Yanzu teacher who is in the department of history at tsinghua university. At that time I was a doctoral student in the Department of History and Theory at Tsinghua University and Li Yanzu is my teacher. Now we are alumni of two universities one is Tsinghua Academy of Fine Arts and the other is University of ceramic. He is professor of Tsinghua University Academy of Fine Arts also is the dean of the School of Humanities at Jingdezhen Ceramic University.
    Li Yanzu Thank the organizer of this exhibition for providing me with the opportunity to learn.
    Over the past decade or so I came to the Porcelain Capital as a Jinggang scholar at the invitation of Jiangxi Provincial Government. I have had some dealings with ceramics ceramic industry and ceramic art and also studied some of them. During the whole learning process I met Mr. Zhang Shouzhi as soon as I arrived in Jingdezhen and he told me a lot of knowledge about ceramics and the development history of modern and contemporary ceramics in China.
    After seeing Mr. Kaufman's works also listening to all of you here just now speak what Liu Jude said made me think. Mr. Kaufman's works which is born of nature of nature of innocence of art differs most from that of some of our ceramists. Just like our Chinese calligraphy there are writing calligraphy making words writing there are outflow from the heart surface like cursive is not written outflow from heart. I think what Mr. Kaufman did was very spontaneous and it actually came out of his heart. Therefore these works grow out of the nature. As a part of the nature he expresses his thoughts on the nature inspired by the nature through his works.
    I would like to summarize it theoretically in three aspects

    The first one is materials. Pottery is the art of materials so we look at Mr. Kaufman's grasp of materials clay China clay and composite materials are mixed soil and so on.
    The second is his skill. His skill is shown in two aspects. One is his various small works. The expression of the craftsmanship its elaborate production elaborate production are out of nature in the end. So the layering process is a very elaborate refined kind of shaping and pursuing. Pursue to the end is what we say from the technical level to the way of art the way of nature.
    The second technical expression is engraving. The application of gold bricks adopts some methods of engraving including cutting. In fact the combination of this skill and the bricks the bricks as the most advanced material in China are a relic of history and a symbol of our culture. In his depiction he used the landscape of China as well as the abstract figures of modern China which is modernity. This is the technical aspect fully shows the production and handwork.
    The combination of materials and techniques has formed his unique expression language so his works not only have the shape. However more importantly the charm of the earth the meticulous craftsmanship and the charm of craftsmanship displayed through this shape.
    The third is the concept that you're talking about. T he most different thing about our modern ceramics from traditional ceramic production is the concept. Mr. Kaufman's ideas are modernity avant-garde exploratory and as you might say philosophical. I think this philosophy is actually a kind of thinking on the survival of human life and the potter materializes his thinking in his craft and works which is why he has so many very impressive works.
    In addition I feel that Mr. Kaufman's love affair with pottery and in fact with China can be seen in these works. As an ancient and powerful country of ceramics China shows its understanding and yearning for the ancient Chinese ceramic art and culture which in fact provides a classic model for the development of contemporary Chinese ceramics and ceramic art. On the one hand we should pay attention to all kinds of materials pay attention to manual skills pay attention to the ultimate spiritual factors and even philosophical thinking and expression.
    Thank you all!
Fang Lili Thank you Professor Li Yanzu. I think he understands Mr. Kaufman's works. He talks about providence nature the way of heaven and innocence. Skill is good but it should follow the way of nature. It is the philosophy of the ancient Chinese get return in Kaufman’s works through his art to explore the influence of a philosophical problem. Also Li Yanzu teacher spoke Mr. Kaufman's works are full of fashion and exploratory. I think it's important to be avant-garde and explore. Our modern ceramic art considers usefulness too much. But is it useful for primitive man to hit stone with stone It doesn't work but once you hit a spark it's a big problem and it changes the fate of mankind. Therefore exploratory and avant-garde nature may be a problem worth thinking about for Chinese artists.
    Next we would like to welcome Professor Chen Anying who is now the director of the Department of History and Theory of Tsinghua Academy of Fine Arts. He has a lot of thoughts on the tradition and modernity of China and he has participated in many intangible cultural heritage activities. I hope he can tell us his views on the exhibition today.
    1908  Chen Anying Thanks to the teacher's invitation. All of you are seniors. I will talk about my personal feeling. I just see the exhibition in showrooms. In fact I think of a symphony that I heard many years ago a symphony by the German musician Mahler that was written in 1908 called "Song of the Earth". I think Kaufman’s overall creation impressed me is a "song of the earth". More profoundly reveals a relationship between us humans and the earth pottery and soil. I have just noticed that there is also a video recording in this exhibition hall which is a video of a group of aborigines carrying bricks to build a house probably from Africa. In this video I think he is concerned about the simple phenomenon of building houses with bricks made of clay which touches me.
    Just now Professor Bai Ming said that Kaufman is a contemporary artist. We all know that the main development direction of contemporary art is the direction of idealism. It will give up a lot of traditional materials and traditional crafts and regard media materials as a means of arbitrary choice to display his ideas. Of course there is another trend in contemporary art which is to focus on the creation of materials. This kind of creation can be found in the Western but there may be more in China.
Generally speaking those who create contemporary art based on materials have a limited theme. In general he thinks about the relationship between man and nature or the relationship between man and history. These two points are very prominent in Kaufman's work one is man and nature the other is man and history.
    1979So what is nature Just now teacher li Yanzu also said that our Chinese concept of nature is natural. In the process of western modernization another view of nature came into being that is a wild nature without human beings and before human beings appeared. On the surface it seems to be close to the universe in China but in fact I think it is based on a modern science such as geology or anthropology which puts forward such a world view and view of nature. There's a lot of thinking in Kaufman's work based on materials tapping into the energy the energy that comes from nature or from the earth. We see a lot of soil different materials of soil forged after the creation of cracks and nature's orogeny force is relatively close. This kind of understanding of nature is quite common in the western contemporary art world. In Chinese contemporary art especially after 1979 this is also relatively common.
  What I am more interested in this exhibition is that he began to think about the view of nature from the East or China and the most representative one is the gold bricks produced in Suzhou. Unlike rock gold bricks are a material that is inflated by human beings. I noticed that he painted landscape paintings with the characteristics of the literati as well as pornographic. In his dealings with the Bricks I felt that Kaufman had entered into the history of our Chinese literati art. And the relationship between Chinese materials and nature in which a kind of dialogue is formed. I don't think it's quite the same conversation with him with the universe or with some kind of rock.

    I noticed that he deliberately kept a lot of inscriptions on the gold bricks such as how long ago Qianlong was made which shows that he was familiar enough to understand our Chinese history and culture and he had such a response. So this response is very different from our traditional carving on brick where we use lines to make dramatic figures and reliefs. Kaufman's carving is crude in contrast to our traditional sense of carving on brick which is also instructive for us to look at our history and tradition in a new way one of our traditional materials.
    Therefore I think his artistic creation is also very enlightening for us Chinese and Chinese artists which is a bit of my feeling.
    Fang Lili I think what Professor Chen Anying said is really inspiring to me. In fact we have always known that China is relatively ahead in dealing with the relationship between people but lagging behind in dealing with the relationship between people and things. There are two things that we see in Kaufman's works one is a Western understanding of nature and one is an Eastern understanding of nature. The understanding of nature from the West is mainly reflected in the understanding of the universe the understanding of no one's view of nature which is still very inspiring to me. Western science and technology is relatively advanced so they pay great attention to people and things to expand. China also talks about the view of nature but the Chinese view of nature is always human is the interaction between man and nature so we pay attention to the unity of man and nature clever work although the nature is natural but it is also the participation of people. But it's different from the Western idea that things have to be changed that they have to be. So I think this is a very interesting statement including the view on bricks reminds me of Mr. Fei Xiaotong's saying that China is backward in the age of human and material. But when the era of man to man comes can we Chinese people think more I think art still needs to be discussed with each other and only through discussion can we get a lot of new inspirations.
    Next let's invite Mr. Rao Xiaoqing to speak. He comes from Jingdezhen and Jingdezhen has a thousand years of history of ceramic production. He is a famous ceramic master in Jingdezhen and let's listen to his views.
    Rao Xiaoqing Thank you Mr. Kaufman for making a presentation of contemporary ceramics.
    At lunch Kaufman asked me where was the way out of Jingdezhen. I was so scared that I didn't dare to answer. I was very hungry at that time and I wanted to talk about it later when I had time. I mean I want to answer Kaufman right now what is the way out for Jingdezhen.
China has officially turned Jingdezhen into a pilot zone for creativity and innovation. As a national platform it is already invested more than two thousand RMB. Since the official document issued Jingdezhen will be the a big platform of China. Business platform including furniture jade purple sand ceramic. Everyone went to Jingdezhen to find a new platform to fight for a place because the next thing that Jingdezhen might be is an integrated platform. There is room for the development of modern ceramics and there is also room for the development of traditional crafts. It is a comprehensive and serialized Jingdezhen exhibition platform. Jingdezhen has always been tolerable in history. J ingdezhen will tolerate anyone who comes here and they will be become part of Jingdezhen. Even Kaufman he will also be part of Jingdezhen that's all.
    Jingdezhen is to make ceramics. Its current ceramics and historical ceramics are dependent on what In order to feed my family the ceramics I made need to be sold. This is a very traditional way which is self-generated according to Wang Yangming. My things are not put in that place when I make them. They need to be bought by person. Jingdezhen people hope to make these things it has the value of circulation in the social circulation this is what Jingdezhen will do today its way out is here.
    Of course all the people of international ceramics can find an exchange platform in Jingdezhen. Jingdezhen is more about absorbing the current international ceramics and receiving all the cultures. In my opinion today's Jingdezhen is diversified multi-sequence multi-program with great space for development and excellent exhibition. In the future all the people who need artworks from all over the world may go to Jingdezhen to find what they need. This is the future of Jingdezhen and this is its way out.
    This is my point of view.
    I have three ideas about Kaufman's works ones he brought from France ones he did in the gold block series. Actually two are pottery; one is porcelain. And that's how it should develop.
    I think Kaufman's thing is more standing on his pottery. I took a closer look today he surprised us a little bit. why Because the work he brought from France it should be said is full of a beauty. He jumped out of the natural standing in the universe. This is very close to the Chinese Taoism philosophy jump to a higher philosophy to do a thing. His multiple symbols are very clear. When you look at it it's beautiful but you can't tell where the elements come from what language they're in. I think Kaufman is very successful.
    I think Mr. Kaufman is a very rational man. You can see his works are very Chinese. The gold brick he made even have a picture of the sex. Kaufman's comprehensive culture is very rational and he creates his work in a rational way to understand human nature. I think Kaufman is brilliant. Two of them are pottery and one is porcelain. Kaufman's work as a whole I think his stuff is very aesthetic. Look closely at the symbols that are full of beauty but the symbol is very difficult to use language to express. I think Kaufman's success this year can only be solved by philosophy. It is to use your philosophical thinking to understand those figurative things. It's a combination of a lot of symbols and this is how you feel all the time you're feeling this way today you're feeling that way tomorrow. You stand in each period of the mood will thinking differently and understand differently you will find that his works have different thinking at different time. This is Kaufman's success.

    That’s all.
    Lili Fang Thank you Rao Xiaoqing.

    I found that Jingdezhen is an inclusive city which contains all kinds of cultures in its culture because all kinds of craftsmen and merchants gather there. In ancient times Jingdezhen had different guild halls integrating many different cultures. Not only does the city incorporate a two-dimensional culture but it has a three-dimensional culture since ancient times and a three-dimensional culture is a global culture. When I write about the history of Jingdezhen I will write about it in other countries if I use a telescope because now if I go to other countries there will be Jingdezhen porcelain in any big museum of any country so this city is very tolerable. I have been studying Jingdezhen for 20 years and I have been studying it since the 1990s. Therefore from here I think that the prospect of Jingdezhen is the future of our country. If the country spends a huge amount of money to build Jingdezhen the resources allocated in it are not only Chinese resources but also international resources and global resources. I think it also provide many opportunities for international potters artists. Jingdezhen is now an international metropolis. It is not only the local of Jingdezhen craftsmen also have foreign contemporary artists contemporary artists all over the country including college graduates across the country and artists all over the world. In the ancient times of Jingdezhen it was the craftsmen to release and now it is not only the craftsmen to release but also all kinds of talents to release including the momentum of the country to describe a future prospect of Chinese ceramics. I think this is a very interesting thing. Therefore Mr. Kaufman's exhibition has given us not only the inspiration of art but also the inspiration of China's future development including today's exhibition which I think is very controversial.
    Professor Lu Bin is a famous Chinese contemporary artist and a professor at the School of Design Nanjing University of the Arts.
    Torbjorn KvasboLu Bin Good afternoon I and Kaufman and Torbjorn Kvasbo knew each other  for many years. For Kaufman I am particularly fond of him. He is one of the few artists that I see especially in China who can do a good job. At the same time can talk clearly about a lot of ideas. On the level of philosophy and aesthetics many historical and cultural issues can be considered deeply. So that's one of the things I really admire about him.
2016In recent years he has made several solo exhibitions in mainland China. I have been to another two. One was at the Guangzhou Academy of Fine Arts where he made a very large installation out of Chinese black bricks and bamboo. Then he made a leaf out of grey Chinese tiles and bamboo for the 2016 Shanghai Biennale. These two works should be adapted to local conditions. In a relatively short period of time the materials commonly used in Chinese eastern architecture are used which are particularly typical. The two basic elements bamboo and bricks and tiles I think he explained perfectly in terms of how to convert between understanding and concept. This is another aspect I appreciate him. He got away from a lot of what we call ceramic artists and focused on technology and ideas and was fascinated by this fascination with materials to express a particularly pure technique a burning experience something that might not have been very important to him. His ideal goal or what he pursues may be a kind of understanding and concept with a point in the middle which is demonstrated by his mastery of basic skills. This point is worth learning for me.
      92  I want to thank him because Tang Hongyu and I made a 92-minute documentary called 'The Southwest Ceramic Period' which documented the primitive pottery making techniques of China's ethnic minorities. The French version of this film was translated for us by Mr. Kaufman and his assistant for a long time translated into French. Without the French version we wouldn't have won an award at a French film festival. In addition to his creation he has a broad vision and he can find the value of our films which makes us feel very grateful.
    Fang Lili Thank you Professor Lu Bin.

    Next is Dai Yuxiang whom we are very familiar with because we both come from Jingdezhen.
    He is the director and professor of the Department of Ceramics College of Handicrafts China Academy of Art.
    Dai Yuheng Mr. Kaufman knows us very well. He is our guest professor a ceramist that our students liked very much. Because his vision was very broad and he was as many of the teachers have said interpreting western based on eastern philosophy. Just like his exhibition of gold bricks gold bricks are a very typical symbol of Chinese culture which has been recreated a lot. For example when we talk about a work we should give it a certain humanistic thought or promote it with a theme.
A Westerner can think of a very typical Chinese elements to express such a material. When he is in class our students like him because he straddles the East and the West not just an idea or a very western thing. We often think about a question our contemporary pottery in fact most of the aesthetic standards in fact I think is western. The so-called contemporary art is the same a kind of spirit in the West a system built within its system. So we are also thinking about a question how China should go today  Is it possible to develop an Eastern aesthetic As Fang said Jingdezhen has a large capacity. It is an important porcelain area in China. Chinese ceramics not only Jingdezhen but ceramics in other cities were probably very important in the world until the eighteenth century. It has a large number of things stored in the museums of various countries in the world with our Chinese symbols which is very brilliant. After the 19th century Chinese ceramics actually went into decline. Westerners did not need what we had before. They had the formula and the ability to make good porcelain themselves so famous German brands appeared. So the history of ceramics after the 19th century has nothing to do with China.
    Now we also have a strong sense of responsibility. Although we are in university there are two parts craft and design. In addition to slant the artistic thinking society forward development. Material and spiritual are the same. After material civilization reaches a certain level spiritual art should be pursued.
    The discussion of traditional and modern ceramics has become very hot on the Internet not long ago. In fact I think there are two major problems one is modern the other is traditional. Must move forward development the world forward development culture science and technology. Ceramics are moving forward development so formed the ceramic contemporary such a group.

    We are teachers in colleges and universities and we have two missions how can we establish our creative direction or teaching mode or teaching philosophy today We are constantly thinking about it. So I am very grateful to Mr. Kaufman for his works today. We often emphasize that a creation is humanistic and ideological. He has crossed a lot. He has already crossed into ideological philosophical thought Eastern philosophy etc. He has raised the technology to the Tao to the metaphysical height we often talk about.
    Therefore it is also worth our young teachers and ceramists to think deeply to think about a lot of problems I think this exhibition is very inspiring to me after seeing it.
    He gave us a lesson not long ago. Today when we had dinner he asked me how the students reacted after I talked with them. I said that the students like to chat with him very much because his vision is multi-dimensional not only stay in the technology and technology which is a great inspiration to our graduate students.
    Lili Fang Thank you Dai Yuxiang for his speech. His speech gives us a thought. China called the mother country of porcelain used to be the center of ceramic art in the world but later it declined because of industrial civilization. After the industrial civilization China's ceramics must be backward including the city of Jingdezhen the peak period is no longer. So in the 1990s I wrote a book called Lost Town but today it occurred to me that I'd like to write a new book called The Return of the Old Town. I thought the days when Jingdezhen became the world's leading city in ceramic development had gone by. It no longer exists. But today I see that China is starting to become the center of the world ceramic art development again with different people from all over the world gathered here again. This place can only develop if it gathers people. Any ideological revolution including artistic revolution is a human factor. Therefore if people from all over the world come to Jingdezhen to do things they will bring their wisdom to Jingdezhen. Therefore Jingdezhen no longer belongs to Jingdezhen it belongs to the world. Therefore it will have a higher and better development in the future. In history although we had a high glory and then declined the future is actually full of hope and the hope is that we can share beauty and happiness. Because in the era of globalization Jingdezhen is not only the Jingdezhen of China it should be the Jingdezhen of the world. I think if there is such an idea Jingdezhen must follow the world.
    Next let's welcome Wan Liya to speak. He is a famous Chinese potter and a member of the International Ceramic Association.
    Wan Liya Thank you Professor Fang.

    Through this exhibition I think one of the things that's really important is the working method and language style. I think this kind of working method and language style is a new contribution and advance to ceramics.  Also it has certain enlightenment significance for our Chinese modern and contemporary ceramic creation. He and I are old friends and he is willing to talk about traditional Chinese philosophy Western philosophers and even some Zen cases and allusions. I think his methods of work and patterns of language are actually based on their own traditional sources of thought. A working mode working method and language mode clearly supported by this source of thought I think this is also of enlightening value to me personally.
    Fang Lili Thank you Mr. Wan Liya for your understanding of Mr. Kaufman's works in terms of language patterns and working styles. In fact what I find particularly interesting about Mr. Kaufman's work is that he doesn't separate the material the technology and the idea. It's all one. There's a lot of contingencies there's a lot of natural processes and he thinks that there's a creator in the process and the creator is not himself but the gathering and shifting of energy in the process. However this kind of energy in China can also be seen as a generator or an image in Chinese philosophy. The elephant is invisible and the instrument rhyme is vivid. In fact these things give us a lot of thinking.
    I am thinking about a question science and technology can keep innovating and moving forward but cultural things sometimes need to go back to the origin and rethink. Just as Liu Jude said many contemporary things are even one with the original things. What Kaufman has taught us is that not only do we have to look ahead we have to look back to our ancient Chinese just like the Renaissance in Europe which looked back to the ancient Greeks and Romans but created something completely new. So our tradition is limited to the Ming and Qing traditions but not enough of the Ming and Qing traditions but we can also go back to the Song tradition and even before the Song tradition the pre-Qin tradition of a hundred schools of thought. All of these things are resources for our future development which we may sometimes overlook and are developed in Kaufman which gives us a very good idea.
    Art has no national boundaries thoughts have no national boundaries. We can break through the national boundaries to common integration.
    Next let's invite Mr. Jiang Guoxing master of Chinese industrial art to speak.
    199919992014Jiang Guoxing thank all the experts leaders. My name is Jiang Guoxing and knew Mr. Kaufman since 1999. How He came to my place of work in 1999 and took a lot of photos and videos. When he met me again in 2014 he gave us both the photos and the documentary. We felt that we had never met before. I have been engaged in the application of ceramic materials in space decoration and the application of ceramic art into public space with fashion elements taking this road. After talking to me Kaufman realized that it is not easy to have such a person in China who specializes in this industry. A few days ago some experts in Jingdezhen had a discussion about Mr. Bai Ming's art exhibition. The living environment of contemporary ceramics in China is actually not very good but what is the direction of ceramics in fact At lunch today Mr. Kaufman asked Master Rao about the way out for Jingdezhen. Master Rao said that the Jingdezhen government was very concerned about it and had also invested funds. What's more important is our ideas. We can't just be popular with what we say we should be innovative and inclusive but we should create with our heart and life in the actual creation. Kaufman is such a person.
After talking with me he later mentioned he wants to make a work in the place he visited ten years ago. He proposed a topic of mutual help interconnection mutual assistance and cooperation the Internet era he made a whole art. Our local government is willing to provide about one acre land for him to build a ceramic garden. Many masters and experts present here have visited the site. I was with Kaufman when he was doing the gold bricks and I really felt that the artists in our country really wanted to learn from him including the on-site firing and so on all by themselves. I have a lot of cooperation with him in the field of ceramics including now there is a park hoping that he can keep his works full of Zen in China which are different from Chinese potters but also have Chinese cultural thoughts.
    Fang Lili Thank you. In fact what Master Jiang Guoxing just said has given us a lot of inspiration. Chinese ceramists have learned a lot from Kaufman.
    Now let’s welcome Chao Ziwei.

Chao Ziwei I was deeply touched by the teachers' interpretation. From other point of view I think one of the most striking things about Kaufman today is that he is a contemporary artist not a ceramic artist. His materials are very contemporary. After I came here today I felt that many of my friends should come and take a look at the exhibition because this exhibition touches on a lot of things. I was deeply impressed by his materials. We Chinese people speak of the craftsman's spirit. In fact Mr. Kaufman's craftsman's spirit is fully reflected in him. My family also makes materials and my family makes traditional ceramics. When it comes to my generation that's my brother we are twin brothers. I also start with materials for sculpture.
    What I feel more deeply is that each material has a lot of things when it is made. There are a lot of things that can be spread in it. Many Chinese artists I saw the Terracotta Warriors sculpture is actually a deeper point is that it is really from the perspective of Chinese artists so for us in fact now many people should be better to expand our own ideas and ideas.
      Fang Lili Next let’s welcome Lin Jie.

  Lin Jie Let me just say briefly what I thought of Mr. Kaufman's work. I was surprised to see him using gold bricks and using terracotta warriors. I think Mr. Kaufman is very free and he moves freely across cultures. And he goes very deep and he moves constantly across cultures across cultures and expresses himself very freely. I think in this sense Mr. Kaufman is empty. Buddhism says "there is something wonderful in the air". He is not persistent and he can absorb everything. Therefore he is very free to absorb and express in each culture. Today we would say that his works are the western exposition of Eastern philosophy but I think they can find worldwide resonance and understanding in Africa and Europe. He is not obsessive. He absorbed too many things then well integrated. He did a good integration of his ideas and materials with the world culture.
I think this is some inspiration and reflection for us. Now in China we should not emphasis on the concept of porcelain area too much. For our young artists they are very westernized and cosmopolitan but have they gone far enough to absorb and understand the cultures of other places  Mr. Kaufman come to China for more than 20 years continuously and constantly experience Chinese culture. For our young artists I was wondering if they were superficial to some western style. I think this is what Mr. Kaufman can reflect on our domestic creators. 

    I have been doing one thing in the past two years. I want to write some comments on modern potters mainly from the perspective of modernity to analyze and evaluate the works of potters including teachers Zhu Legeng and Lu Bin. A book will be published next year. Although I have become attached to pottery for many years but I think I am still a layman so I also hope to learn more from a lot of predecessors and teachers. I hope that the book will be a little better next year to learn more from you.
    Thank you!
    Fang Lili Let’s welcome Jin Jin who makes gold bricks.
    20142018Jin Jin I was not very familiar with the ceramic art and I only know how to make gold bricks. In 2014 Mr. Kaufman talked to me about creating on the bricks and in 2018 he held his first art exhibition of bricks in Shanghai Expo Center. During this period I can tell you about the deep impression that Kaufman left on me in the process of creating the bricks.
I think a gold brick is already a collection and a work of art so when Kaufman said he was going to do his work on gold bricks I couldn't imagine it. In the past the gold bricks were used exclusively for the imperial palace. Its craft is very complicated and unique. Our factory is the only one in the world that has mastered the ancient method of making gold bricks. It was a work of art a collection and I couldn't imagine what Kaufman was going to create. So I didn't think much of it at the time and when someone contacted me I thought I don't want to do it. Then I thought because the gold bricks are a very authentic traditional Chinese culture and up to now we still keep the original traditional skills for production we make gold bricks not to seek quick success and instant benefits.
    I am thinking that this is a very standard and authentic traditional Oriental culture. If Mr. Kaufman is going to carry out his artistic creation what will be the result of the integration of Oriental culture and western culture I'm looking forward to it from this perspective and I'm wondering what the consequences of Kaufman's work on gold bricks will be.
10%We started to work together. Making ancient bricks will take long time and the rate of finished bricks are low so when Kaufman created on the ancient brick I was very distressed. The ancient gold bricks created by Kaufman are less than 10% of the finished products produced in one kiln last year. I am really reluctant to give so much treasure to Mr. Kaufman for free creation. But also to facilitate the cultural exchange between East and West I provided Kaufman with a large quantity of gold bricks for his work.
14It is a very traditional Chinese culture and Mr. Kaufman to use modern technology to create works which is amazing. And as you can see today we have 14 works. In fact Kaufman did more than that. We use very traditional techniques to create ancient bricks whereas Kaufman uses very modern techniques using water knives sandblasting including his favorite images of the Terracotta Warriors. This is a deep impression on me. The Eastern and Western cultures can really well interpret the brick works we see today. I am deeply impressed by the excellent combination of contemporary art and very traditional and ancient techniques.
    The second very deep impression is that Kaufman's work has deep philosophical thoughts in it. When Kaufman was working on it I didn't understand why working on it Later I thought of the theory of Yin and Yang and the Five Elements in China and he understood it well. Mr. Kaufman is very fond of Chinese traditional culture. Yin and Yang interact with each other to produce everything including the mutual garden built by our teacher Jiang Guoxing in Yixing which is a good explanation of the very good Chinese culture.
The third feeling is that Mr. Kaufman's artist spirit is meticulous in his works. He is very conscientious during creating works. A piece of work if he decides to work with water knife for creation he must first design drawings on the computer. Then if he think the first time is not good he will modify until satisfied. This is the spirit of craftsmanship. The spirit of craftsmanship is very much advocated in China and Mr. Kaufman is a good example of that.
And one of the things that I feel more deeply about is that Mr. Kaufman's work is very down-to-earth. There's no such thing as a very artistic and very strange thing in his works. After so many years of contact with him I feel that he is not eager for quick success. In today's contemporary art creation what we lack is these authentic things because there are a lot of art creation with too much so-called gorgeous appearance and too eager for quick success and instant benefits. I've always said we don't live in a vacuum we live in the present. We engage in artistic creation including my creation of ancient gold bricks which I pay out of one's own pocket every year. We still have to have the most basic life security because we still live in the present living in the reality. However  we must not be too eager for quick success then you will not create some good works.
    That's how I feel.
    Lili Fang Thank you Mr. Jin. We didn't know about gold bricks before Kaufman used them. It was only through Kaufman that I knew that gold bricks were so expensive and so good.
    It is true that the spirit of craftsmanship is advocated by the Chinese but sometimes it is missing here. We have seen it in a foreign person which is very interesting.
      798  Next I'd like to invite Zhu Yang to speak. He is the curating assistant of this exhibition. He studied contemporary art in the UK. Since he studied in the UK for his undergraduate and high school education so he has some understanding of contemporary art.    
      Zhu Yang Actually I came to the exhibition and the seminar because I was a staff member. I was an assistant to the curator and my main job was to organize the materials for the curator before the exhibitor. I sorted out the materials and gave them to the curator. Before the curator understood the works of Kaufman in this exhibition I had already understood all the works so I had a relatively good understanding of the works in this exhibition. But sometimes because you know so much about it you suddenly ask me to talk and I don't know where to start.
    There are a lot of points in Mr. Kaufman's works and I've been listening to it for so long that I think you can't talk about it without talking about the local the contemporary the traditional and the contemporary.
    studyAt the dinner a few days ago Mr. Kaufman and Mr. Zhou Guangzhen had a very interesting understanding when they discussed the problem. Mr. Zhou Guangzhen is a Chinese American who can represent the thinking of some Americans and Mr. Kaufman is a European who can represent the thinking of some Europeans. They say that in the Western mind the traditional and the contemporary are not at odds with each other; they are one. This problem could be more like China and some western countries to ask some of the problems in the near future in this I want to tell about some of my experience which is also very interesting. I'm a curator assistant so I will review exhibition work film again. The day before yesterday night we have a friend there he's not art filed. He was my friend on the bike who was watching while I was reviewing the work film. He knew nothing about art and ceramics. The only thing he could understand was gold bricks because gold bricks had more content. I told him about the ancient technology of gold bricks and how Mr. Kaufman used gold bricks to create art. The first question he asked me which I didn't expect at that time was that does Mr. Kaufman come to China to learn gold bricks technology After learning the gold brick technology will he use this technology to create works At this time I suddenly realized a problem in fact our traditional and contemporary understanding of the concept of learning is different to a large extent. My friend understands that learning is when our teachers or teachers pass on experience and knowledge to students and this learning is actually the inheritance of our traditions. But for Mr. Kaufman he's also using the Chinese tradition and he's learning but his learning is not simply passing on he's doing exploratory research. Our Chinese learning corresponds to English study. In fact English study is more about research than study and this research is an independent exploration. I can learn the knowledge that others know or I can learn the knowledge from the teacher. I can also learn the knowledge that no one knows so I can independently explore a field that no one knows. I think Mr. Kaufman has reflected this attitude of learning in his artistic creation.
    So when he learned the bricks he actually see the bricks as a complete including the history including the technology the modern factory workers the modern factory production of bricks. For him the bricks are not just technology but rather a complete bricks ecological chain. Every part of this ecological chain is an element of his creation and is the material of his creation.
    Therefore although Mr. Kaufman uses ceramics and clay to create his works he uses the culture people and materials contained in ceramics as his material to create his works.
      Therefore he is not only a ceramist but also a contemporary artist. In contemporary society what people care more about is not the material itself but the idea carried by the material. Sometimes if the idea can be independent it will even abandon the material. Therefore contemporary art sometimes makes a mistake abandoning everything and entering into the pure spiritual world. But Mr. Kaufman expresses the spirit through his understanding of the material which happens to be a completely different way of expressing it from the West which is the Chinese way of expressing it. For westerners Socrates said that man is the ruler to measure all things that is to say we measure all things according to human standards but for Chinese people it is not the case. For example in The Book of Change and the Eight Diagrams of China all things are the measure to measure people. Therefore in the philosophy of Chinese people materials are the carrier to express humanity human feelings and human thoughts. This is what differentiates Mr. Kaufman from most other Western artists which is the theme of this exhibition. In fact this is also a western exposition of Eastern philosophy.
    Fu Weijie I would like to make a suggestion. Mr. Kaufman made these works from many producing areas in China. For example the mountains and rivers on the gold bricks have all been penetrated. In fact the production of ceramic tiles is in Foshan which can be seen in the exhibition hall of their enterprise of course not gold bricks but ceramic tiles. I suggest that our ceramists should still pay attention to the industry and then with thinking to create good things.
      I was arguing with Luo Xiaoping a few days ago about the slit sculpture. I said it was because you had been in Yixing for 10 years that you created the slit sculpture. He denied it again and again but because Yixing is all about making something out of slit by hand that's our traditional craft. For example when we evaluated the master an old man of alkaline water technology participated in the review and all the judges did not know the alkaline water technology and did not know what he was doing. The judges said they did not know what the man was doing. After the work was finished they knew that he was going to engrave it first. After the work was done they would then engrave it and fill in and polish it with some very complicated technology.
    Therefore I think a ceramist should understand the producing area the clay nature and technology of the producing area and then create from the theory. For example Jingdezhen has always been pursuing painting and porcelain painting and always wants to rely on fine artists and calligraphers. I think that calligraphers because many of our producing areas are inviting great painters to paint on porcelain the things painted are not so good. So the potter had to go his own way.
Fang Lili in the traditional Chinese literati and workman always separate so Chinese scholars is the literati in the temple Chinese scholars has never be stained with mud. Stained with mud was thought very shameful. Therefore we can not carry the industrial revolution on our shoulders or hands so the failure of China's industrial revolution may have something to do with the fact that our literati did not participate in productive labor. I'm in anthropology. Anthropology is to be like working people. Therefore I think it is the western scientific experiment that gives the westerners this series of thinking so even the ceramists shall be closely related to the production practice. Ms Vijay speaks very well.
    Torbjorn KvasboMr. Zhou Guangzhen who is a director of the Ceramists' Association representing Chinese and Chinese Americans wanted to respond to some of the questions after hearing so much and I think he did the guided second half of the speech followed by Mr. Kaufman's response and then Torbjorn Kvasbo.
    Let’s welcome Mr. Zhou Guangzhen.

    Zhou Guangzhen Good afternoon everyone. You have made a wonderful speaks. Before this I had a suggestion with Fang Lili I said that in a foreign country there is more dialogue and interaction. Following what you have just said I think I have three ideas for this exhibition
    First the exhibition embodies Kaufman's personality.
    Second philosophy.
    Third Eastern and Western.

    2012-2018ICE  Kaufman was the president of ICE from 2012 to 2018 and I learned a lot from him when we had the opportunity to travel together have meetings discuss etc. I think there will always be a crowd around him wherever he goes. It is his personality charm.
Personality charm I think it’s because his important experience his vision. He was born in Morocco Africa and has dual French and Swiss citizenship. He traveled all over the world not only to China but also to Japan South Korea India Iran Turkey and so on. I think this is an important part of his personality charm.
    If we speak of philosophy it may be a great deal even a book. I think that in his works can reflect the important one is that we speak of Yin and Yang tai chi is the connotation of the unity of opposites. Actually I remember at that time in the late eighties when I just came to the United States in the United States in a classroom on art history Yin and Yang and tai chi these content is often talked. I am quite surprised. It is all part of the history of western art. It is inseparable.
    We can see from these works today that the creation of the works comes from the heart. I think it is more like pottery is part of the stone because ceramic materials are originally part of the stone but after being fired they come back to the stone. Many works even grow out of the soil.
    The third thing I want to mention is that we often talk about the Eastern and the Western. Maybe for Chinese people the East and the West are the East Asians. We all look the same. We are all a farming nation; we all use chopsticks so some people say this is the chopsticks culture circle or the Chinese character culture circle.
    China is centered on itself the Middle East region to the west of China should be the west and you even might not think of it as the east. For this problem I understand the east and the west could derive from the  split of the eastern Roman and west Rome so for westerners the east of Asia is totally east. It is called the far east. East Asia has the Middle East and the Near East.

    For example if we talk about Buddhism Buddhism must be Oriental and has a great influence on Eastern culture. But if we look at the way Buddhism came over from India if we look at the way sorry Indian Buddhism actually the way Sakyamuni looked was the way Westerners looked they were the Aryans. India belongs to the Anglo-European language family the Anglo-European race which puts India largely in the same place as Europe rather than East Asia.
    I want to ask the first question now and I want to ask Mr. Kaufman in your mind where is the boundary between East and West thank you
    Fang Lili Actually the concept of the West and the East is relative. It is not absolute.
    Zhou Guangzhen There is no clear line between East and West.

    We talk about east and west the same way we talk about left and right today depending on where you sit you sit left and you sit right and it's the same thing that we form the idea of east and west.
    Fang Lili Mr. Zhou Guangzhen presents his ideas and questions. Mr. Kaufman will respond two things one is that Mr. Kaufman will respond to the comments on his work today and then he will also respond to the questions that Mr. Zhou just raised.
    Thank you. Welcome Mr. Kaufman for his response.

    Kaufman It was really hard for me to get started I would say a lot of times it was hard to get started and I've received a lot of information a lot of the comments that people have made about me this afternoon. I want to say that my answer is probably not that structured.
    I wanted to start my answer in this way at the beginning.
    First of all for my porcelain art I think it is because of love. I don't really look for it much. It is a personal emotional feeling and relationship. I think it is because of this force that I understand it let me understand what life is let me understand what life is through this art of porcelain.
    So sometimes you don't know why you like it it's not a strategy or a way it's not because of the ceramic art where you inherited it but it's a natural love.
Second someone just mentioned about the ceramic is the creation of the modern mode. I want to say I don't really care about that it didn't matter that it is the modern and contemporary ceramic art. I really want to be able to understand how it means to me but this is not my primary concern. I want to be an artist who works as a ceramic. I might be a traditional artist in the eyes of others and a lot of people might think of me as a contemporary artist. But I want to be a ceramic artist which is my name because I think it can reflect my true thoughts. Because pottery is the most important part of my life. It's also the most important part of my work; it's also a very important part of my imagination and my images because pottery makes me think about how I should create my work how I should connect the world.
    Therefore it is also my very important definition of art. It makes me think in the process of action. If you think for the sake of thinking that is just a philosophy.
    In my opinion art means that you should think in the process of action and creation. It can make you find a good way to understand the world. I believe that if I didn't put it into practice I couldn't think. A lot of people think they have to think before they think and I think that's what I learned when I was a student our professor told us before you create you have to have a concept and you make your concept into a work and that's what I learned.
    In the process of learning and experiencing I have learned more and more that you should not only rely on such a concept. You should not have such a concept before you create. I think you need to have an intuitive feeling and you need to have a feeling for the material especially for the whole process of creation for the culture. It is such a feeling that makes me transform such a feeling into a work of art. Without a feeling I cannot create anything. Such a feeling comes from materials from the whole process of technology and also from different cultures. So I personally feel that we need that kind of idea or that kind of sudden burst of emotion.
    For example I've been working with the Tri-colored glazed pottery of the Tang Dynasty including the Terracotta Warriors and also with the bricks so I feel like I need this strong feeling to be able to bring it to other people.
I personally own idea is that we at the time of action it is the basis of the anthropology. This means that we want to know who you are. Let's say you were a fish in the water my idea is that you can go to Africa can go to Japan South Korea including China Iran and other countries. I think it's a good way to get to know other cultures so that we can get to know ourselves better. Because my own roots my cultural roots may not be as strong so people like me may not have very strong cultural roots by some definition. In this way they have more opportunities to have a three-dimensional understanding of the world. They can get a variety of feelings from different aspects including all aspects of life some are elegant culture some are very down-to-earth culture including street culture.
    If there is an emotion I can express it through that emotion and give it back to society and other people. I think this is what I call our anthropology where we have to take a step back and understand the world better and understand ourselves better.
    Now I will tell problem of sculpture and architecture and some pottery. Personally I will feel all of this is the structure of the human. They are all created by the human structure but also shows the limits of human and limit. For example twenty-nine thousand years ago we had a practice of human sculptor because they are going to worship god in that time. Thirty thousand years ago they could make all kinds of boats. Eleven thousand years ago they made bricks and made art. From that time on we will find that all the pottery of these crafts began to originate.
2003So I personally feel the development of human art is infinite. Now I want to quote a sentence I said before. As I wrote before when I used elements like the Tri-colored glazed pottery of the Tang Dynasty in 2003 from the perspective of pottery we have to consider different human activities pottery is not to replace some other craft. From a Taoist perspective we have to combine possibilities we have to combine the future with the past. I think that's why we use some very primitive techniques and combine it with high technology. And that's why we have a responsibility as artists to bring up or revive our understanding of these tools of the materials used of some of the techniques of ancient times.

    These can play a better role in the present and I think the tri-glazed pottery of the Tang Dynasty gives us a chance to understand some of these processes. So the tri-glazed pottery of the Tang Dynasty is not only a cheap tool for tourists to enjoy but allows us to have elegant artistic expression which means that all things exist and they can become tools for our artistic creation. As long as we better integrate these tools into modern society one of the things that I learned in China is because I spent six months in some places doing tai chi for an hour at 630 in the morning. And in doing tai chi I learned about body movements including hand movements I find it of the spirit between person and this energy can connect people. This energy is not to say that the need to take or going to but everyone contribution of a process everyone to contribute to such a process so that we can understand the relationship of the people is unlimited is very open. Not just what I can get but what I can contribute what kind of communication we can have.
    Let's go back to the question of concepts feelings or intuitions. In my teaching career I often ask my students what your concept is or how your concept compares to your intuition and at that point I also ask them how you went from intuition to an explorative process. In the course of the experiment you will really become aware of the relationship between your intuition and other senses so that you can make art better. So we can not only create based on imagination but based on reality and we have to interact with the material with the process with the space with the culture so that it can be fed back into your work.
    Finally I have been working in this filed for a long time. I think the ceramic filed is a kind of energy for me. It is a kind of skill. As energy we have to exchange this energy with the world we have to provide the ability we have to be able to receive the energy through our work through our feelings to transmit this energy to society. As for craftsmanship I personally feel that it can be carved into the material itself as deeply as it can be carved into our memory.
    Thank you!
    Fang Lili Thank you Mr. Kaufman! His response was amazing and he help us to further understand some of his ideas. Moreover he repeatedly stressed his thoughts which are very impressive to me is that he speak his art is art in action not the concept of art art is not imagination.
      When I was the curator of Kaufman we couldn't just be a simple curator I read all of his articles I read all of the articles that he sent me and we discussed his works with Zhu Yang including the works that we chose from each other for this exhibition.
    Although I think I have understood I am still not sure. However I think what he said today is similar to my understanding. My understanding article is very long and has been published you can read it.
  I think it is different from our traditional Chinese ceramic art which Zhu Yang just said very well. Our traditional Chinese culture emphasizes inheritance and art but it is more about exploration and understanding understanding who I am by making pottery which is the biggest problem the ultimate concern. And he stressed that we should emphasize intuition in the process because after the industrial revolution we lost a lot of things. Although we gained a lot of things we also lost a lot of things. The most important thing is our intuition our perception of the world has been slow. Because animals use intuition to understand the world because we humans have too many concepts too many words too many symbols to help us understand the world but our perception is dulled. The most important thing for the artist is to re-generalize the human perception.
    Where does he think the sensation comes from In his opinion it comes from technology materials culture and history. Here we can see that in fact the interaction between his feelings and materials does not have concept or design in the first place but is produced during the process of making. And all the things that he had in China could be his material the gold bricks were his material the Qin Shi Huang's Terracotta Warriors were his material the modern high-tech water knives were his material. And he put them together to made all kinds of things.
    There is a very important word in him that he said his cultural roots are not too strong. I think the concept of his nation is not too strong. In fact sometimes this gives him a kind of tolerance. With tolerance he can absorb all kinds of cultures. The more cultures he absorbs the stronger his creativity will be. Because I have studied the history of Chinese ceramics and Chinese history the reason why China has become a huge historical and civilized country is that it is not conservative in history. It is open just like Jingdezhen open. China has always been open. The ocean is vast because it is fed by hundreds of rivers.
    So he would go to Africa China to absorb different histories. In this respect he is somewhat similar to anthropology. I majored in anthropology and anthropology pays attention to cross-cultural comparison. Without cross-cultural comparison we may not be able to understand the world if we only stand in a cultural space. We can only understand the world if we stand in multiple cultural Spaces. And especially now that we have into the three-dimensional culture which is a global culture. Whether it's the trade war between China and the United States or the overemphasis of nationalism it's all because we haven't figured out a process of how we can all live together in one space but ultimately on one planet.
    So today we talk about we are Chinese maybe we will talk more in the future is that we are human we are the earth people.
    I think I learned a lot from Kaufman as well. He came to China to learn Tai Chi which I think is so important. Tai Chi is the Yin and Yang and the five elements. It is a soft thing. It is a needle hidden in cotton. In Chinese philosophy rigid things do not have life only soft things perfect things are constantly rotating. So he thought of energy from Tai Chi and there is energy in Tai Chi. Chinese energy is different from the western expression of energy the western expression is energy the Chinese expression should be Qi. So China is the most fastidious about invisible invisible Qi. People live in one breath(Qi) so Qi is very important in Chinese philosophy. In the west energy is now invented and I think this energy can be permeated with Qi. His energy is different from our Qi. He said you develop this energy and then you can contribute this energy to the world and the more energy each person has the more energy the world has and this is the problem of culture.
    Therefore every culture can contribute to the world. The more we share the less material things will be; however the more we share and enrich cultural things the bigger they will be. Therefore cultural things are also a part of energy. So he has some similarities and some differences with Qi in Chinese philosophy. This is my understanding.
    One of the most important things he said here is that the creation of art is not imagination but to act to do to work. So our intellectuals can't just sit in the house and imagine that our actions matter.
    Torbjorn KvasboNow let’s welcome Torbjorn Kvasbo for response.
    Kaufman I'd like to answer some questions from Mr. Zhou Guangzhen.

The question you just raised is about the boundary between East and West and where the boundary is it's actually irrelevant to me. And one of the things I want to emphasize more is that there's an idea that the French philosopher mentioned earlier. He is a scholar and has a very deep understanding of Chinese culture. He's talking about not just the boundaries between cultures but the idea of space between cultures. I personally don't find the right words in English but I think French is more accurate. My English is not very good. I think it's a special space not just about our differences but about the things in between that help us understand ourselves better. That is to say it is a better way to explore and understand your own space.
    I mentioned energy and actually I just mentioned that energy Qi. I've been doing martial arts for over 30 years including Tai Chi some Japanese martial arts and things like that and I practiced it because I think it's about Qi. It's such a force or energy that's very fundamental to the universe and it exists in the whole universe. It's in space I think it's everywhere. And in fact I think we have to tap into our own nature or our own natural Qi which will allow us to understand the relationship between them. This is my understanding of the relationship between energy and harmony.
Torbjorn KvasboTorbjorn Kvasbo Actually I don't think innovation from naturally occurring. It is even from a lot of innovation is ubiquitous. It comes from the many existing things. And what we've learned today what we can see is that we need to do something traditional. We have to do something based on tradition we have to integrate we have to integrate a lot of information a lot of past knowledge history. We have to integrate history with the moment that I want to point to. It's something new. It's something we put together that's unique.
    In fact I don't think anything will ever be out of date because there are some things that will take on new meaning in this moment. So what we know about the past we have to integrate it we have to integrate it we have to integrate it with some moments that we are experiencing now. This moment is like nothing we've ever experienced before. We have to integrate it we have to integrate a lot of knowledge about everything in our body of knowledge in our vision all the information has to integrate it and integrate it with history. If we can have this vision if you can't get out of this cycle you're probably repeating it.
    So I think we should jump out of the line to integrate it we want to find a way to find a dialogue mechanism which is what we are doing. This is also our in some of the ceramic material used we went to put it on a fresh thinking. We want to be able to have some new innovative ways and maybe we have never thought of before. This is very important.
    Only in this way we don't need to control. We need to do is to try to find it at the moment of what happened just as I started referring to the moment we understand what is. What we know is we don't have experienced before this thing is the moment we accumulated such feelings. Even things we've never felt before. That's what we had to go through today and that's a good experience and that's what I take away from all the information that you've shared with me today.
    I value that very much. I value that experience very much. Thank you.
    Lili Fang I'll conclude briefly.

    Torbjorn KvasboI think two sentences Torbjorn Kvasbo said were very important. One is harmony. We found that the human history and the present is not antagonistic. Tradition and contemporary are not opposite like Mr. Jin always speak of traditional made of modern art in Kaufman’s works. The east and the west are not opposing they are also of the blend. Harmony is very important. Chinese people pay attention to harmony most including tai chi Yin and Yang and five elements. China is very particular about harmony and this thing may be a thing that can be shared in the future. Another is the present. We should understand the present. Based on present in the understanding and feeling of the present to create our future.

Thank you all for coming today. Thank you all for speaking. Thank you.